Windows Vista: Defense in depth


Posted by JimAll on Friday, November 10, 2006 5:41 PM 39 Comments

Wow, you describe a specific situation and suddenly people extrapolate something completely different!  During a recent discussion with journalists about the release to manufacturing for Windows Vista, I made a comment about how attacks on the Internet are getting more and more sophisticated, and some of the security features in Windows Vista really help our customers. This somehow morphed into people thinking I said customers shouldn’t use antivirus software with Windows Vista. When the articles and blogs started appearing, I asked the PR folks to send me a copy of the transcript of the call so I could read it over and see if I said something I didn’t mean. After reading the transcript, I could certainly see that what I said wasn’t as clear as it could have been, and I’m sorry for that. However, it is also clear from the transcript that I didn’t say that users shouldn’t run antivirus software with Windows Vista! In fact, later in the call, I explicitly made this point again, because I had realized I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. It’s important for me that our customers are using the appropriate security solutions for the right situations, whether that’s security functionality integrated in the operating systems, or add-on products.

The point I had been trying to make (albeit unclearly) is that Windows Vista includes new security features that can dramatically help improve our customers’ security for certain situations. I was asked a question about how I rated the protection provided by Windows XP with Service Pack 2 and whether or not it was still effective. I ended up telling a story about how the machine my seven-year-old son uses has no antivirus software installed because it runs in a very locked down configuration, which includes only being able to visit websites on an approved list (approved through the parental controls feature in Windows Vista). He also has no access to email or instant messaging and he doesn’t run as an administrator of the machine. In fact, parental controls in Windows Vista requires that the user you apply controls to is not running as an administrator. Email, phishing, and other social engineering attacks are definitely among the most prevalent attacks that home users experience today, and his machine has been locked down in these regards.

My point in bringing up this extreme example was really meant to emphasize that importance of defense-in-depth measures we put in Windows Vista—both the number of defenses and their combined effectiveness.

Now, the comments have unfortunately been cited out of context implying that I said Windows Vista users shouldn’t use antivirus. I want to be clear, most users will use some form of antivirus software, and that will be appropriate for their scenarios. In fact, Windows Security Center, a great feature in Windows Vista, specifically encourages the use of antivirus software.

We’re continuing to make the best operating system we can, and I’m very proud of it. I think we’ve made some great changes in Windows Vista on the security front, and I know our customers will benefit.

jim

 

Posted by Dena: Vista Ready


Jim has just posted a response to all those bloggers and "media" who have posted that Jim said that people

 

Posted by Sephiroth


Wow!  Sometimes one has to question the tactics used by journalists.  It's very unfortunate that things said can be so easily misinterpreted.  I can see how that conversation went:

Me:  The apple is nice and green on the red tree.

Reporter:  Let me quote you on that, you said, "the apple is nice and red on the green tree?"

 

Posted by derekslager


Unfortunately, this "clarification" will lead to more headlines ...

"Vista won't boot without antivirus installed."

"7-year-old children forced to work as Microsoft beta testers."

"Microsoft Security Center is the only supported antivirus software on Windows."

"Allchin: Instant messaging not supported on Windows due to security issues."

"Vista: Totally insecure when running as administrator."

 

Posted by singhgagand


Hi, I know my question doesn't have to do anything with the article but I really need to know something about becoming a computer engineer what kind of field is it when u want to create OS. Please tell or E-mail me at singhgagand1@yahoo.com

 

Posted by Rosyna


Actually, I think not needing an AV package in an OS is an awesome goal to have. If an OS is so secure that malicious code doesn't have a chance to run on the machine, then God's in His heaven, all is well with the world.

Alternatively, to have an OS that is so secure that installing an AV package creates more problems than it could ever solve.

 

Posted by newscientist2000


Its unfortunate that the media sometimes adds their own interpretation to unclear sound bites.  Good journalists would follow up with you to and ask for clarification first!

 

Posted by bluvg


Jim,

I listened to that interview as well, and I certainly didn't get that impression from what you said.  Like you mentioned here as well, you specifically mentioned later that you were in no way endorsing running without anti-virus software.  I think you're being too hard on yourself about being unclear!

I've run with XP without any anti-virus for a long time now, and before that with W2K.  I do an online scan every so often to make sure the machine is clean, and not once has it found anything.  

Simply put, if you're running as a standard user, there is very little in terms of *viruses* that you have to worry about.  I suggest to anyone questioning that, go ahead, look through the anti-virus vendors' databases, and see how many viruses operate on the premise that they have unrestricted access to HKLM, Windows system directories, Program Files directories, etc.  The vast, vast, vast majority of viruses are rendered totally ineffective when running as a standard user account.  The whole anti-virus industry is a bit overblown anyways (hey, don't tell me you've found "900 instances of malware" when they're all cookies...), but there's no reason to think it's heresy to run without anti-virus when running as a standard user.  Not that I'm recommending it either, of course, but it's just not the crime against humanity some claim it to be.  Besides, some of the most dangerous attacks out there these days are not virus-related, and many are not OS-specific.

The only concern I have, though, is that now the attackers will turn their focus to non-admin accounts, perhaps going after privilege elevations and information within the user profile.  I hope Vista is up to that challenge.  I also hope that UAC isn't "one more dialog" that people simply click through without reading.  The standard user account provides the *right kind* of inconvenience to the user--requiring them to launch a privilege escalation *manually*, not having it done for them.  As for my company, we're definitely sticking with the standard user account plan.  Under which, by the way, we've had not one virus/malware attack succeed--and, according to our logs, that would be the case even if we didn't have anti-virus running.

 

Posted by steve.wiseman


Jim,

This is another case were the press intentionally gets it wrong. I read what you had said - before it became a silly article on Slashdot.

They need people to come to their website, so it works for them to take you totally out of context. Stuff like this just makes me so damn mad. I read the title of the article, and said "What to hell, this is bullshit" so loud I woke up my infant son sleeping in the other room.

Each time I see this happen it reminds me that every time I see a sensationalized article title it is time to start digging for the real facts.

 

Posted by Robert McLaws


I posted my thoughts on the matter earlier today. Jim, you told me this story during my interview with you as well (don't know if that was the first time you told it or not) and it was as unassuming then as it was Wednesday. I'm sorry it has caused you such headaches!

 

Posted by dasryms


Hi

Congrats to Jim Allchin & team for Vista-RTM

das

 

Posted by Single Dove


Just do anything you want to do,in despite of anything others say.

Feet are your own,mouthes are others's,you cann't contol what they want to say.

In additional,so-called journalists are just crows.

 

Posted by Gabriel


Don't worry about the tabloids and pundits. Their whole existence relies on simplifications and distortions. I read them because they're funny and sometimes instructive but I know better than to take their headlines seriously. Look at how they jumped over Bill Gates' use of the word "castration." I think everyone understood the point he was trying to make and yet they rushed to ridicule him for simply trying to speak accurately.

 

Posted by AnXa


Hi Jim!

Althought I don't trust Windows Vista in terms of security as much as I trust my Gnu/Linux setup I honestly belive you guys have done your best with Vista. And that it is most secure _windows_ ever built. You have couple great innovations built in which however could have been implemented bit better but who cares? I don't as long as it's fine for games and stuff. Responsiveness is everything for me and that's the reason to use Linux as main OS on my computer.

I hope that Windows will be more responsible and faster even under heavy load.

Thank you!

 

Posted by Michael_Moor


Hi!

Congrats to Jim Allchin & team for Vista-RTM.

-------

http://www.dl4all.com

 

Posted by Michael Howard's Web Log


When I read the interview " Allchin Suggests Vista Won't Need Antivirus " with Jim Allchin I shuddered,

 

Posted by jogiba


Jim, alot of critics have a career in anti-Microsoft spin so I would not loose any sleep over it.

BTW congrats to you and the team on getting Vista RTM out.

 

Posted by Myo Thaw Tun


Thanks Jim,

I don't use any antivirus software since I start using Vista RC1. Everything seems fine with this issue. Congratulation! to you your great jobs on Windows Vista and Microsoft. Don' go away and bring more innovation works to us.

Thanks..

MTT

 

Posted by Caveman


Can anyone answer a question for me... "Will Microsoft release "Browser Shield" so as to even more protection to IE7?"

 

Posted by Donna's SecurityFlash


There was a news about Mr. Jim Allchin's interview is misunderstood. BTW, Mr. Allchin r espond to it

 

Posted by Kurbli


Korábban írtam Jim Allchin félreérthető nyilatkozatáról, úgy tűnik, hogy az elmélkedés a mondottakról/leírtakról

 

Posted by Gabriel


Ars Technica eviscerates those who tried to twist your words.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20061111-8199.html

 

Posted by Harry Waldron - My IT Forums Blog


Jim Allchin's recent comments on the enhanced security found in Vista were misinterpreted during a telephone

 

Posted by Harry Waldron - Microsoft MVP Blog


Jim Allchin's recent comments on the enhanced security found in Vista were misinterpreted during a telephone

 

Posted by cesarebalena


Hi Jim,

that's quite normal really when you work with journalists that are there for different reasons... instead of listen and understand Vista improvements !

Cesare

 

Posted by Microsoft News Tracker


Allchin Suggests Vista Won’t Need Antivirus During a telephone conference with reporters yesterday, outgoing Microsoft co-president Jim Allchin, while touting the new security features of Windows Vista, which was released to manufacturing yeste..

 

Posted by tombowie


After "testing" RC1 for a while now, I have to say that Microsoft seem to have gone to great lengths to make Vista more secure.  

However, as I am running with "administrator" privileges have I inherently made my system less secure?  Or do the combination of Windows Defender, User Account Control, and a revised kernel effectively secure my machine from nasties?  To be safer still, I am running Avast! Antivirus Home.

What a dream it would be to be able to run Windows without any third-party security software... i certainly do not envy Microsoft with their security efforts ;)  

Vista RC1 is solid enough to use on a daily basis (very few niggles on the public beta), so i suppose it's gonna be up to Joe Public to decide what he/she thinks when it is released... personally, i like what i've seen so far!  

I know this is a Microsoft blog, but I really feel that they could learn a thing or two by seriously studying Linux security and "copying" some of the ways it does things... my day-to-day O/S is Ubuntu at the moment, no viruses, no spyware, no problems, just "works".

I would not, however, inflict linux on anyone who doesn't have a penchant for learning more than they'd perhaps like about the internals/configuration, and who aren't prepared for the possibility of hardware driver problems...  in this respect, and for most PC users, Windows rules the roost and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

 

Posted by Antaris


Jim,

I have been running Windows XP for over 4 years now (got it when I turned 18 with my new (now VERY OLD) computer).  I have never had an antivirus solution installed (probably just down to arogance), but at the same time, I can't remember ever having a problem with virus/trojans etc.  Sure I have had spyware problems, but thats nothing Windows Defender cant sort.  The point I am trying to make is that in my 4 years of unprotectedness, I have never had a serious problem, and I believe that is due to the fact that I am just very aware of the potential problems that face the average user and I just take steps to ensure that I don't run into these problems in the first place.  Your average user wont do this, they will open malicious attachments, they will visit adult sites and no doubt get plagued with diallers etc, but the security fundamentals built into the core operating systems should be sufficient to counteract any malicious actions along your vectors.  That said, the average user should definately invest into some worthy malware protection.  I am considering finally installed some AV, and I think my choice will be NOD32 or Avast! simply because I don't want any pesky under-performing AV solutions ruining my kernel!

Peace out!

 

Posted by SSiTE News


Ever since Microsoft Vista chief Jim Allchin talked about his son not using anti-virus in a recent teleconference with journalists, the world has been abuzz with claims Vista won’t need AV software. Now Jim Allchin has clarified his statements on the

 

Posted by Security Incite: Analysis on Information Security


November 13, 2006 - #155 Good Morning: Happy Monday to you. Ready to get back into the fray? I am, after a great weekend with the twins. But I was certainly happy when the boss came back into town. They were pretty well behaved and we even braved th

 

Posted by arneske


A pure delight to get Vista insight directly from "the horse's mouth". I'm having problems reading white text on black, though. Could you reconsider the color choice? Thanks, Arne

 

Posted by Mitch074


You could read it more easily if you weren't using Internet Explorer (any version, 7 included) by using this neat thing called alternate CSS stylesheets (used by Firefox, Opera, Safari etc. and in existence since 1999) and choosing Page Style > No style.

No wonder, since this wonderful blog made in XHTML 1.0 Strict still uses incorrect HTML 3.2 syntax (bold tags, not closing self-contained tags such as <br />) and all.

Try to render it with a correct XML mimetype, and see it throw up errors all over the place. Nice (almost) table-less design though.

Maybe by 2010 will Windows reach *nix security levels... Yes, a security level where you can still give direct hardware access to some processes, and not an 'all or nothing' kind of access.

Yes, I'm talking about OpenGL and EAX.

 

Posted by Security Curve Weblog


Have you seen the ads for the &quot;Truth in Software Commission&quot; hearings over at BigFix. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend checking it out. Their satirical content is absolutely hilarious and it's very much worth the trip (trust me, it's

 

Posted by OpsanBlog


 

Posted by SAGE Wisdom Journal


Latest news on Windows Vista include questions over antivirus and the released v

 

Posted by AllenJensen


Jim, given the "defense-in-depth measures ... put in Windows Vista—both the number of defenses and their combined effectiveness", where do you and others reading this blog believe the AV vendors should focus their efforts?  What should I look for in an AV product to cover the gaps?

 

Posted by SirKronan


Am I the only one that is extremely annoyed by some of Vista's security measures?  Even when I'm in administrator mode, I have to grant permission TWO TIMES to run an installer EXE file.  This is ridiculous.  Even programs I have been running for days still prompt me for permission, like Firefox.  Is there anyway to permanently trust an application so it NEVER asks permission?  Especially when I'm in administrator mode!!  When I am logged in as an administrator and I double click an executable it's because I WANT TO RUN IT.  I don't want to be asked two more times for permission.  This is incredibly cumbersome, and it makes Vista very discouraging.  

I have AVG free antivirus for Windows Vista (I'm opposed to trial editions like Windows One Care) and it only starts with my computer about 50% of the time.  And every time it tries do download updates my computer asks me permission again.  I have already granted AVG access in my firewall.  I shouldn't have to give permission every single time it tries to update.  Microsoft, if you're listening, please find a way to make program installs, updates, and running programs in general less bothersome to use.  When I'm in administrator mode, just about every click I make is one I want to click.  I don't have any executables I am going to run which will damage my system because I'm very careful what I install and download onto my computer, and I shouldn't have to give trusted applications permission to run or download updates EVERY time, sometimes twice.  If there's someway to disable this that I don't know of, please let me know.

 

Posted by Nick White


Hey AllenJensen:  you'll want to visit this page for a list of Windows Vista-compatible AV products: http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/update/windowsvistaRC1AV.mspx.

 

Posted by WebLog de Stéphane PAPP [MSFT]


Nos amis suisses ont développé un site en français sur l’utilisation d’ordinateurs connectés à Internet.

 

Posted by Satisfy Me


It has been a busy week, and between catching up at work and a backlog of email, sick kids and just about

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